"Once Saved, Always Saved" and Three Cups of Tea: Cup 2

This is the second part of a three-part guest post by David Bates of the blog Restless Pilgrim, on the topic of the doctrine of eternal security, better known as “Once Saved, Always Saved”:

In the last post I began to examine the responses of Mack, a recent commentator on my Once Saved, Always Saved post who offered some constructive criticism concerning the Scripture passages I presented.

I previously looked at Mack’s commentary of 1 John 5:16-17 and 2 Peter 2:20-22. I will now look at his analysis of several other passages which I offered in defense of the idea that it is possible to lose one’s salvation. Mack basically attempted to disqualify these texts since they were drawn from letters addressed to groups of people.

So, grab another cup of tea and we’ll look at what he had to say…

Text #3: Romans 11:1-23

Scripture

David Bates

“But if some of the branches were broken off [the Jews], and you, a wild olive shoot [the Gentiles], were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree [Jesus Christ], do not boast over the branches…For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you…Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” 

Mack’s Comments

[This] is addressed to gentiles as a group who are invited…to join the family of God, but warns them as a group of holding the Jews in contempt since God is able to turn again to Israel and dump the Gentiles (which will happen during the tribulation period). No saved individual Christians are sent to hell in the passage.

My Response

Mack emphasizes that these words are addressed to a group of people, the Gentiles. In his commentary on other passages he explains what he sees as the implication of this so I will address that point then.

A real warning?

Mack and I both agree that this passage from Romans is a warning. Paul tells his Gentile readers that they share in Christ “provided” they “continue in His kindness”. I would suggest that this is the main warning, rather than against “holding the Jews in contempt”, which Mack asserts.

I have to ask, is this a warning without teeth? What will happen if Paul’s Gentile readers don’t continue in the Lord’s kindness? Paul says that they will be “cut off”, separated from Christ. Can someone who is separated from God really enter Heaven? I don’t think so.

An immediate warning?

I may be wrong here, but I get the impression from Mack’s comments that he doesn’t think this passage has any direct relevance to the original Gentile recipients of Paul’s epistle.

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles… - Romans 11:13

It sounds like Mack thinks that these words only apply to the Gentiles at some point in the distant future. If he does believe this, I would appreciate an explanation as to why he holds this view.

So once saved, always saved? I’m afraid it doesn’t sound like it to me…

Text #4: Galatians 5:1,4

Scripture

“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery…You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace”

Mack’s Response

[This] is addressed to a group of persons (saved and lost church attendees in Galatia) who are drifting off into Jewish legalism and other human self-effort types of religious do-goodisms. They have fallen from grace into legalistic bondage. No saved Christians go to hell in the passage, although they might be among all the people mistakenly caught up in legalism because of the church’s bad teachings.

My Response

As above, Mack appeals to the fact that this passage is addressed to a group of people.

Group members are people too!

I’m afraid I really don’t see what possible impact the group nature of this epistle has concerning the passage’s meaning.

For example, suppose I take a group of friends rock climbing and I say to them “You should all make sure you put on your safety harnesses otherwise you’ll hurt yourself if you fall”. I’m speaking to a group, but the truth I’ve just communicated applies to each of them individually. If they don’t obey what I say, they will each have to suffer the consequences of not heeding my words.

Likewise, Paul’s words are for the Church in Galatia, but they are obviously meant for each member.

Does gravity apply only to groups?

Again, maybe I’m misunderstanding Mack’s words, but it sounds like he thinks that groups can fall away, but individuals can’t.  How does that work exactly? If this is what he believes I find it logically problematic. If one assumes “once saved, always saved”, then the following two statements must be true:

(i) It is impossible for someone “saved” to fall away
(ii) The non-saved have never been “saved”, so there’s nothing from which they can actually fall

So, given these two statements, who exactly are these people “fall[ing] away”?

Extreme Words

Returning to the passage itself, I just don’t know how a person can be “burdened again….[returned to] slavery…alienated from Christ…fallen away from grace” and still end up in Heaven. As I asked in my original post, how could the language be any more extreme? Paul is saying that the Galatians are returning to the same slavery they experienced prior to coming to Christ!

So once saved, always saved? I’m afraid it doesn’t sound like it to me…

Text #5: Colossians 1:21-23

Scripture

“And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel”

Mack’s Comments

In the King James Bible the “ye” demonstrates that Colossians 1:21-23 is plural, a statement to the group. No individual Christians are damned in the passage, rather the local church is suppose to not move from the faith (sadly many have). Of course, individual saved people can be carried along by false doctrines (like St. Peter, see Galatians 2:13), and it would bring them into temporal condemnation only.

My Response

Mack is perfectly correct here that the King James Version (KJV) reveals that the “you” here is plural. But, again, I have to ask: so what? Groups are made up of individuals! Do warnings, when spoken to a group, not actually apply to the members of that group? Can the ”local church”, a group, “move from the faith” while itsmembers remain “saved”? Who exactly is moving from the faith?

Orthodoxy or orthopraxy?

Mack speaks about “individual saved people…[being] carried along by false doctrines”. The example he gives is unfortunately not an especially good one since it concerns orthopraxy (correct action) rather than orthodoxy (correct belief). St. Peter knew that the Gentiles were part of the New Covenant, in fact, they were first brought into the Church by Peter himself! The problem was that he wasn’t practising what he preached (Acts 15:7). Unfortunately he wasn’t the last Pope of the Catholic Church to say one thing and to do another…

Salvation by ANY faith alone

To my mind, Mack’s response implies something extremely radical. It sounds like he’s asserting that it’s possible to embrace legalistic heresies with absolutely no impact upon salvation. He concludes that there will be “temporal condemnation only” for legalism, although I’m unsure what it is he is seeing in the text to lead him to that conclusion.

I don’t know the denomination to which Mack belongs, but it seems to me that embracing this belief together with sola fide (salvation by faith alone) presents some real problems. Within Lutheran theology the only real “mortal” sin is heresy, since it strikes at faith. When someone embraces heresy, he still has faith, but in what does he have faith? He has faith not in truth, but in error. To quote St. James, can such a faith still save him?

If Mack is saying that we are saved by faith alone and that it doesn’t matter if that faith is a heretical one, I’d like to hear his explanation and reasoning.

Again with that pesky conditional…

Returning to the original passage, Mack has not addressed the important part of the sentence which was underlined in my original post: “…provided that you continue in faith”. What will happen to the members of the Church at Colossae if they don’t continue in faith?

So once saved, always saved? I’m afraid it doesn’t sound like it to me…

I’ll address Mack’s final two Scripture interpretations in my next post.

The article OSAS & Three Cups of Tea (Part 2) first appeared on RestlessPilgrim.net